Sean: So Seth after hearing about me and what I did, what were your first impressions?
Seth: It was kind of weird. A mutual friend introduced us like we were going to be best buddies. And he was notorious for doing that. And the situation was like "hey! you're divorced, he's divorced, you guys will get along great!" And I think at that stage I asked you your background story, and you in your assholish ways, just scratched the surface and the surface was "I just divorced my wife cause I cheated on her." [Laughs] I was like "cool, fair enough, fair enough."
Sean: So what were you actually thinking then? Generally speaking.
Seth: Fuck, you smiled like a smug prick. You didn't have your shit together either. I was like if you didn't know how to hold down your relationship, you shouldn't have been married in the first place. This guy has no integrity. This is someone who maybe I'll meet...I'm sure I was going to meet him again because that was always the way with Ethan Well actually no, with Ethan it was occasional, I wasn't sure if I would get to meet him again, but if we meet again I'm sure we'll talk. You seemed smart. Well you were smart. We were having a conversation and you were quick. Very quick and witty. But I didn't trust you any further. [Laughs] I trusted you for as about as much as I could see you.
Sean: Fair enough. How much of that was what you just went through with your wife at the time. Do you think that coloured a lot of that or was it more of a gut reaction?
Seth: The smugness, I don't think that was coloured by that. But there was a certain aloofness. And I was frustrated by...I was simultaneously attracted to and repulsed by you were extremely confident. When it comes to confidence, there's certainly no one who projects it more than you. And I don't think I saw...Certainly your reaction about your ex-wife and divorce and everything else that was heavily coloured by...I think I had no time for you. I certainly wasn't interested in giving you anymore time than I had to. And I was hugely coloured by the experiences that I went through. Because, to be honest, there was a huge part of me that was like "you know what? If I spent too much time with this prick [laughs] I'm going to punch him in the face or I'm gonna rip him to shreds with words." And that was the thing, you were intelligent, you were smart, whatnot but I didn't think you thought about things. It was very clear that "this guy made these choices and he wasn't fucking thinking." And that was heavily coloured by the experience I had with an ex who just didn't fucking think. [Laughs]
Sean: So obviously, we're very very good friends now.
Seth: Right.
Sean: I'm your hero, I'm the guy you look up to in all aspects of life.
Seth: You should actually see what I've done with the clothes you gave me. I don't actually wear them. There's actually a little shrine in the corner of my house.
Sean: I'm sure there is. You never wash them, you just go over and sniff them every once in a while.
Seth: [Laughs] No, that would be pretty weird.
Sean: No, that's pretty par for the course actually.
[Laughs]
Sean: In all seriousness. When you first met me and we shared our stories with each other you very much detested me, from there to now, short version, what made you come around, what made you change your mind?
Seth: It was a combination of time and time spent processing what was going on with me and time spent with you. I feel very comfortable in saying that you took the reigns in growing a friendship and even despite that it was a long time before we had actually reached this point. It's taken years which is a long time anyways but in Shanghai it's a HUGE amount of time.
Sean: It really is.
Seth: We found some things to connect on. I think there were actually some moments that we had actually shared about what had happened and what was happening and I actually got to see you react around people and got to know you and in particular you were as honest with me as you were on the first day but it wasn't about something that was so volatile for me. Particularly your observations on people and [you] thought about things yourself. That really lifted your currency in my eyes. That you were someone that actually did think about shit instead of just wing it. And the fact that you were happy to sit with the fact that I was going to lash out. I think that was kind of the lead up to how we were becoming friends. I think for us to become really good friends we had a couple of great nights. And that cemented the friendship. I started hearing more of your story and could empathize with you a lot more you know. That was part of it. And...fuck it, I started caring for you man.
Sean: Ok so, I want you to elaborate a little more on what you just said. I mean obviously in this aspect, we come from extremely polar opposite sides so despite that, what about my story made you empathize with me?
Seth: It was the pressures that were in the relationship at the time. We talked about the story and the lead up to it. The story about the certain lack of things and you doing the thing that you thought you should do. And that story, people doing what their parents tell them what they should do. Like the "next step". Like get a fucking job. And I know for some kids, that was next on the list. And so hearing about that process and about you being pointed in that direction. And seeing how there were other pressures on you, that was a big thing. But also apart from that as well, finding out about how you, not so much about the relationship but how you dealt with you and your girlfriend. And I fluctuate between whether this is a really good thing for both of you or if it's just a really good thing for you AND in that case if it's going to be a good thing for you if it happens or if it doesn't. I think in terms of seeing you being romantic, which is something that hasn't happened for a loooong time. For all this shit that's going on, your girlfriend has really spurred something in you and so to see you opening up like that again and being able to be involved in that real human emotion. Well I think that we share that. I think I'm kind of the other way. I'm coming down from being super romantic and long term commitment. But we certainly share some ideals about that. And so the empathy was just sharing in your story and that you were willing to share it. And that you were happy to stand up to scrutiny and...fuck, you even said you were wrong. And you said that you were wrong in a way that was so different from my experience. I think particularly when it came to talking about cheating and infidelity, the time that we spent talking about it, there was a consistency in what you were doing. Cause everything that we were talking about I was benchmarking at the time against what I had heard at the time and what I believed and understood myself. As much as the situation is fucked up and you consider it to be a fucked up situation. You were still able to exceed expectations of honesty and integrity about this fucked up thing.
Sean: Thank you. Those were all lies by the way.
[Laughs]
Sean: So let's delve a little more into your own experiences. When your wife came out and told you that she cheated, how did you feel? Just take us through that process. Of what you were thinking, of what you wanted to know. Stuff like that.
Seth: I think the story actually starts a little bit earlier because her admitting that she was cheating was actually the last step in a long chain. 6-8 months before we moved to China, to Shanghai. We'd been arguing and arguing, which had gotten progressively worse. And I could see and feel that she was pulling away. She would not follow through with solutions and she wasn't interested anymore in fighting and getting a solution. And we had a trip to Australia with family and we had some time that was apart. And after that time apart, we were on the airplane and she was reading a book and she started crying, bawling her eyes out. She said "I have been such a bitch. I've been so nasty to you. I'm so sorry, I want to change that. I don't want to do that anymore." And I hugged her and said "I forgive you" and whatnot and we went back and for two weeks she absolutely amazing. Very considerate, very selfless, very thoughtful, very involved in discussions, all that sort of stuff. And within that two weeks I was hunting around for stuff. I was incredibly suspicious that something had happened or that something was going on. And I found evidence that something had happened. But rather than confronting her with it, I basically pushed her into a corner where she had to lie for the rest of her life or she could admit it. She didn't actually admit it the first time she just said "I have a story that's gonna take some time to tell you. I need to tell you about a journey that I've been on but you need to give me time before I tell you." And that was how she told me that something had happened. At that stage it was actually a little bit of relief, because I thought that there was hope. Because I had not been sleeping at night. I was suspicious as fuck. I felt violated. And threatened and oppressed and I couldn't take anything she did at face value. It was always suspicious. Even the nice stuff that she did. Like I said, she was. She was nice for those couple of weeks. I couldn't take it, I couldn't accept any of it. And it was gut wrenching, it really was. And I remember very very clearly, because I had actually thought about this, beforehand and in the moment when she said it and I said "you have one chance at this, one chance to share this story completely." And of course she agrees to it and whatnot. But yeah, for me, I wanted to know. I wanted to know why. I wanted to know what. And I am by nature a very jealous and suspicious person and when it comes to threatening something that was so key to my life, so important to my life. This was my life's work. And I actually hadn't realised that until afterwards how important it was. How much of a dream it was to find a girl that I loved with everything and to build a relationship; to build a family with this girl. This was integral. I needed to understand why my dream, just got shat on. And so it was seriously important for me to know what was going on and for her to be open to any question that I was asking about it. The main two questions were "what?" and "why?". "How?" kind of comes along with the territory.
Sean: So when it finally came out into the open, you obviously wanted to know why?, what happened? all of that stuff. Do you think that's fairly common for at least men that get cheated on? That they really want to know everything even if it hurts them?
Seth: I don't know if I can pass it on to other men but I know for myself that it's what I wanted. I already got hurt, the hurt had already happened. For me, I needed to get the whole picture. And stand back and look at the whole picture and say "wow this is fucked" or "hmmm, ok I can handle this." Or maybe not that I can "handle it" but that I could move on. Because one of the biggest damages is that you didn't know it was happening. There's this whole subplot and whole other story that's happening behind the story that's supposed to be the most important one. This seems to go a couple of ways from what I've heard from other people. They either want to hear everything, or they just want to pretend like it doesn't exist.
Sean: So those are kind of opposites though. They just want to know or they just want to be ignorant about it.
Seth: Yeah. I don't think there are many people who want to know just a little bit.
Sean: That's been my experience too talking with other couples that have gone through this. Now when we say 'everything", obviously we don't mean positions and all the nasty little details, we're not talking about that.
Seth: I don't know. Look man, I want to know everything. I want to know the blow-by-blow. We had a conversation about whether or not he had a condom on. I wanted to know if she was inebriated at the time, I wanted to know what position, and how bold she was in the entire situation. I wanted to know and I wanted to ask. I think the specifics for me was more about punishing her. So yeah I guess you're right. For the most part, they want to know the reason why, they don't need to know...
Sean: The exact details. But I also think that men and women cheat for different reasons for the most part. Men tend to cheat for physical reasons and women tend to cheat for emotional reasons. So did you think about that at all? Did you want to know her mental state or emotional state of why she cheated?
Seth: Yeah totally, I was all about that. I also wanted to know what it was like.
Sean: What do you mean specifically by "what it was like"?
Seth: Did she want to do it again? Did she enjoy it? Did she think it was better?
Sean: So would you have actually wanted your ex to have told you that? The honest-to-God truth of why she emotionally cheated or physically. Even if it hurt you. Even if she said that he was better than you, he lasts longer than you, whatever, you would still want to know?
Seth: Yep. Still want to know. Yeah the specifics. Because this whole thing, when people say "well if I haven't cheated with someone, well they would have just cheated with someone else." That's fine. But they still chose to cheat with you. So it's trying to unlock that connection.
Sean: Why that person? Why they chose to cheat with you.
Seth: Exactly. And what that says about you and what that says about them.
Sean: So for you, being cheated on. Was it more important for you to understand the physical aspects of it or the mental aspects?
Seth: Definitely the mental aspects. Like you talked about before, I knew that one of the big motivations for females having an affair is emotions. That's what all the research has said. And similar to you, I've talked to friends and counseled friends on the damage. And so it was the emotional problem that needed to be dissected more so than the physical.
Sean: So for you, the mental reasons were really really important and you wanted to understand, and know the mental history behind it. Whether or not she had this connection with him? How strong it was. Whether or not she actually wanted to be with him? Stuff like that.
Seth: Mmhmm. Yeah for sure. And this is the other aspect to the physical element as well. And on my end, she could not admit to it. She had such a disconnect from the person she thought she was and the person she actually was. And she could only stand in the one place and say "holy shit this is what I did, I made this choice, these are the reasons why". She would look at that and she would be horrified. She would look all the way across that chasm and go "well that's not me. I didn't do that." And she could not reconcile herself with what she did. And myself as an outsider to it all was able to see more clearly was going on. More so than she did.
Sean: Would you actually want her to explain everything to you mentally? What she was going through with herself, with the guy as well. In the sense that she felt more or less connected to the guy.
Seth: Yeah I wish that she would have had the presence of mind to do that. But again given that she had the presence of mind to do that, I don't see why she wouldn't have before this happened. But there are some things that you can't undo. And infidelity while you're in a faithful relationship is something that cannot be undone. You can liken it to a tragedy; a death.
Sean: I've talked to some women who have been in the place your ex has been and they're afraid to come clean, they're afraid of hurting that other person. What would you say to them? Tell them the whole truth or hold back?
Seth: I don't know if telling them is the best choice.
Sean: What if they want to know?
Seth: If they want to know then telling them is the best choice because it changes the relationship. Even not knowing and it happening, changes the relationship. And that's one of the things I picked up on and if the guy is observant then it changes the relationship. So whether you tell or don't tell, is the first decision.
Sean: If you do?
Seth: If you do, you need to be so open as to be volunteering information. If you fight the process, in any way, if your don't feel comfortable to share any information in any way. Then you set out to completely undo what you set out to do in the first place, which is come clean. And also, you want to minimize the hurt. For anyone who wants to tell because they want to "minimize the the hurt" I think they're misleading themselves because they want to tell to unload the guilt. Because the hurt has already happened. The hurt happened once they betrayed the relationship. And now you're just deciding whether you're going to own that or not.
Sean: So speaking for yourself, it's either you don't come clean, don't say anything, or if you're going to come clean you tell them everything, even if it may hurt?
Seth: Yes. Yeah. And you volunteer. It's information that you give. You give freely. And you give abundantly.
Sean: Once again, even if you know that the information will hurt them?
Seth: Yeah definitely, because the information will definitely hurt them and should hurt them. Unless they don't care, and if they don't care you might have found a solution to your own problem. [Laughs]
Sean: So what if your wife came to you and told you that she was in-love with this other person?
Seth: Well then it makes you choice a lot easier doesn't it?
Sean: Would you want to know that?
Seth: Hell yeah! Why the fuck would I want to be in a relationship and they don't want to do that? Or they're only living half in the relationship?
Sean: But what if your ex had said to you "I love you, it's just that I'm in-love with this other person"?
Seth: Yeah.
Sean: So same response, same thought process?
Seth: Yeah, because it means the person has actually thought about it. There's a difference between being in-love and loving someone. To know something that is vital to the health of the relationship is vital for both parties to have.
Sean: Well that's all the questions I have for right now. But I think cheating is a very interesting subject because of how men and women have very different mindsets. Like we talked about earlier, men cheat because of physical attraction and women cheat because of mental attraction. And generally speaking, if men want to know, they'll say it. But what they may not say is that they want to know everything. But typically men that want to know, want to know everything. Would you agree?
Seth: I totally agree with that statement. 100%. If I ask a question, it is not because I want the person that I am asking the question of to process how much they're going to tell. I don't want them to say "well I'm not going to tell them that because it's gonna hurt them. And I'm gonna change this fact because that would also be quite damaging and hurtful." The damage has already been done. The only way to heal it, is to make it clean. To come clean with what the fuck is going on. The person, they don't want to chase information. All the situations that's happened, I don't want to be chasing information. I shouldn't be chasing information. And what I should be getting is, to the best of your knowledge, cleanest, honesty, integrity. As much as what you're talking about is something that totally didn't express any of those elements at the moment it happened. [Laughs] But there is no halfway point. There is no point in sharing a little bit. Because it drags things out. Because maybe it's a guy thing, but I'm trying to piece everything together. And if you leave something out, the other person is going to pick up on it. And it is going to cause more pain. And then there's the added element of "well you're not going to tell the whole truth, you're just going to tell what you want."
Sean: So keeping that in mind would you want to know all the time they spent together? The things she's said to him?
Seth: Yeah definitely.
Sean: Even if it hurts?
Seth: Yes. It's the same question, the hurt's already happened. You're already involved in that. Yeah the damage has already happened, it's further damage by not sharing that stuff.
Sean: So you think that it's more detrimental to the relationship by not sharing the whole story?
Seth: Definitely. But as a guy, my first reaction is tell me everything. Tell me what you were wearing that day. Tell me why you slept with him. Tell me everything! I don't see how that can be confused as "well I'll only tell you about a few parts". It hurts. It's going to hurt. It already hurts. The damage has been done. I don't think it minimizes anything by only sharing part of it. I mean there are people who try to get away with it for as long as possible, that's what my ex did. She only confessed when I confronted her. I forced her to. But that's a reference to her character. I don't know if she was ever going to consciously tell me until I told her that I knew.
Sean: Alright that's all the questions I have now.
I conducted this interview because I wanted to give everyone (including myself) a first hand account of and a better understanding of what men feel like when they've been cheated on. And what they need in the aftermath. While Seth is only one person obviously, I would say that after counseling countless friends all these years, much of what he has said is a very good representation of the majority of men. I'll leave it to the reader to get out of this what they want but I would like to emphasize one thing that he said. Be completely honest, if the guy wants to know the truth, tell him everything, and don't worry about hurting him. Because the fact of the matter is; the worst hurt has already been done.
Seth: It was kind of weird. A mutual friend introduced us like we were going to be best buddies. And he was notorious for doing that. And the situation was like "hey! you're divorced, he's divorced, you guys will get along great!" And I think at that stage I asked you your background story, and you in your assholish ways, just scratched the surface and the surface was "I just divorced my wife cause I cheated on her." [Laughs] I was like "cool, fair enough, fair enough."
Sean: So what were you actually thinking then? Generally speaking.
Seth: Fuck, you smiled like a smug prick. You didn't have your shit together either. I was like if you didn't know how to hold down your relationship, you shouldn't have been married in the first place. This guy has no integrity. This is someone who maybe I'll meet...I'm sure I was going to meet him again because that was always the way with Ethan Well actually no, with Ethan it was occasional, I wasn't sure if I would get to meet him again, but if we meet again I'm sure we'll talk. You seemed smart. Well you were smart. We were having a conversation and you were quick. Very quick and witty. But I didn't trust you any further. [Laughs] I trusted you for as about as much as I could see you.
Sean: Fair enough. How much of that was what you just went through with your wife at the time. Do you think that coloured a lot of that or was it more of a gut reaction?
Seth: The smugness, I don't think that was coloured by that. But there was a certain aloofness. And I was frustrated by...I was simultaneously attracted to and repulsed by you were extremely confident. When it comes to confidence, there's certainly no one who projects it more than you. And I don't think I saw...Certainly your reaction about your ex-wife and divorce and everything else that was heavily coloured by...I think I had no time for you. I certainly wasn't interested in giving you anymore time than I had to. And I was hugely coloured by the experiences that I went through. Because, to be honest, there was a huge part of me that was like "you know what? If I spent too much time with this prick [laughs] I'm going to punch him in the face or I'm gonna rip him to shreds with words." And that was the thing, you were intelligent, you were smart, whatnot but I didn't think you thought about things. It was very clear that "this guy made these choices and he wasn't fucking thinking." And that was heavily coloured by the experience I had with an ex who just didn't fucking think. [Laughs]
Sean: So obviously, we're very very good friends now.
Seth: Right.
Sean: I'm your hero, I'm the guy you look up to in all aspects of life.
Seth: You should actually see what I've done with the clothes you gave me. I don't actually wear them. There's actually a little shrine in the corner of my house.
Sean: I'm sure there is. You never wash them, you just go over and sniff them every once in a while.
Seth: [Laughs] No, that would be pretty weird.
Sean: No, that's pretty par for the course actually.
[Laughs]
Sean: In all seriousness. When you first met me and we shared our stories with each other you very much detested me, from there to now, short version, what made you come around, what made you change your mind?
Seth: It was a combination of time and time spent processing what was going on with me and time spent with you. I feel very comfortable in saying that you took the reigns in growing a friendship and even despite that it was a long time before we had actually reached this point. It's taken years which is a long time anyways but in Shanghai it's a HUGE amount of time.
Sean: It really is.
Seth: We found some things to connect on. I think there were actually some moments that we had actually shared about what had happened and what was happening and I actually got to see you react around people and got to know you and in particular you were as honest with me as you were on the first day but it wasn't about something that was so volatile for me. Particularly your observations on people and [you] thought about things yourself. That really lifted your currency in my eyes. That you were someone that actually did think about shit instead of just wing it. And the fact that you were happy to sit with the fact that I was going to lash out. I think that was kind of the lead up to how we were becoming friends. I think for us to become really good friends we had a couple of great nights. And that cemented the friendship. I started hearing more of your story and could empathize with you a lot more you know. That was part of it. And...fuck it, I started caring for you man.
Sean: Ok so, I want you to elaborate a little more on what you just said. I mean obviously in this aspect, we come from extremely polar opposite sides so despite that, what about my story made you empathize with me?
Seth: It was the pressures that were in the relationship at the time. We talked about the story and the lead up to it. The story about the certain lack of things and you doing the thing that you thought you should do. And that story, people doing what their parents tell them what they should do. Like the "next step". Like get a fucking job. And I know for some kids, that was next on the list. And so hearing about that process and about you being pointed in that direction. And seeing how there were other pressures on you, that was a big thing. But also apart from that as well, finding out about how you, not so much about the relationship but how you dealt with you and your girlfriend. And I fluctuate between whether this is a really good thing for both of you or if it's just a really good thing for you AND in that case if it's going to be a good thing for you if it happens or if it doesn't. I think in terms of seeing you being romantic, which is something that hasn't happened for a loooong time. For all this shit that's going on, your girlfriend has really spurred something in you and so to see you opening up like that again and being able to be involved in that real human emotion. Well I think that we share that. I think I'm kind of the other way. I'm coming down from being super romantic and long term commitment. But we certainly share some ideals about that. And so the empathy was just sharing in your story and that you were willing to share it. And that you were happy to stand up to scrutiny and...fuck, you even said you were wrong. And you said that you were wrong in a way that was so different from my experience. I think particularly when it came to talking about cheating and infidelity, the time that we spent talking about it, there was a consistency in what you were doing. Cause everything that we were talking about I was benchmarking at the time against what I had heard at the time and what I believed and understood myself. As much as the situation is fucked up and you consider it to be a fucked up situation. You were still able to exceed expectations of honesty and integrity about this fucked up thing.
Sean: Thank you. Those were all lies by the way.
[Laughs]
Sean: So let's delve a little more into your own experiences. When your wife came out and told you that she cheated, how did you feel? Just take us through that process. Of what you were thinking, of what you wanted to know. Stuff like that.
Seth: I think the story actually starts a little bit earlier because her admitting that she was cheating was actually the last step in a long chain. 6-8 months before we moved to China, to Shanghai. We'd been arguing and arguing, which had gotten progressively worse. And I could see and feel that she was pulling away. She would not follow through with solutions and she wasn't interested anymore in fighting and getting a solution. And we had a trip to Australia with family and we had some time that was apart. And after that time apart, we were on the airplane and she was reading a book and she started crying, bawling her eyes out. She said "I have been such a bitch. I've been so nasty to you. I'm so sorry, I want to change that. I don't want to do that anymore." And I hugged her and said "I forgive you" and whatnot and we went back and for two weeks she absolutely amazing. Very considerate, very selfless, very thoughtful, very involved in discussions, all that sort of stuff. And within that two weeks I was hunting around for stuff. I was incredibly suspicious that something had happened or that something was going on. And I found evidence that something had happened. But rather than confronting her with it, I basically pushed her into a corner where she had to lie for the rest of her life or she could admit it. She didn't actually admit it the first time she just said "I have a story that's gonna take some time to tell you. I need to tell you about a journey that I've been on but you need to give me time before I tell you." And that was how she told me that something had happened. At that stage it was actually a little bit of relief, because I thought that there was hope. Because I had not been sleeping at night. I was suspicious as fuck. I felt violated. And threatened and oppressed and I couldn't take anything she did at face value. It was always suspicious. Even the nice stuff that she did. Like I said, she was. She was nice for those couple of weeks. I couldn't take it, I couldn't accept any of it. And it was gut wrenching, it really was. And I remember very very clearly, because I had actually thought about this, beforehand and in the moment when she said it and I said "you have one chance at this, one chance to share this story completely." And of course she agrees to it and whatnot. But yeah, for me, I wanted to know. I wanted to know why. I wanted to know what. And I am by nature a very jealous and suspicious person and when it comes to threatening something that was so key to my life, so important to my life. This was my life's work. And I actually hadn't realised that until afterwards how important it was. How much of a dream it was to find a girl that I loved with everything and to build a relationship; to build a family with this girl. This was integral. I needed to understand why my dream, just got shat on. And so it was seriously important for me to know what was going on and for her to be open to any question that I was asking about it. The main two questions were "what?" and "why?". "How?" kind of comes along with the territory.
Sean: So when it finally came out into the open, you obviously wanted to know why?, what happened? all of that stuff. Do you think that's fairly common for at least men that get cheated on? That they really want to know everything even if it hurts them?
Seth: I don't know if I can pass it on to other men but I know for myself that it's what I wanted. I already got hurt, the hurt had already happened. For me, I needed to get the whole picture. And stand back and look at the whole picture and say "wow this is fucked" or "hmmm, ok I can handle this." Or maybe not that I can "handle it" but that I could move on. Because one of the biggest damages is that you didn't know it was happening. There's this whole subplot and whole other story that's happening behind the story that's supposed to be the most important one. This seems to go a couple of ways from what I've heard from other people. They either want to hear everything, or they just want to pretend like it doesn't exist.
Sean: So those are kind of opposites though. They just want to know or they just want to be ignorant about it.
Seth: Yeah. I don't think there are many people who want to know just a little bit.
Sean: That's been my experience too talking with other couples that have gone through this. Now when we say 'everything", obviously we don't mean positions and all the nasty little details, we're not talking about that.
Seth: I don't know. Look man, I want to know everything. I want to know the blow-by-blow. We had a conversation about whether or not he had a condom on. I wanted to know if she was inebriated at the time, I wanted to know what position, and how bold she was in the entire situation. I wanted to know and I wanted to ask. I think the specifics for me was more about punishing her. So yeah I guess you're right. For the most part, they want to know the reason why, they don't need to know...
Sean: The exact details. But I also think that men and women cheat for different reasons for the most part. Men tend to cheat for physical reasons and women tend to cheat for emotional reasons. So did you think about that at all? Did you want to know her mental state or emotional state of why she cheated?
Seth: Yeah totally, I was all about that. I also wanted to know what it was like.
Sean: What do you mean specifically by "what it was like"?
Seth: Did she want to do it again? Did she enjoy it? Did she think it was better?
Sean: So would you have actually wanted your ex to have told you that? The honest-to-God truth of why she emotionally cheated or physically. Even if it hurt you. Even if she said that he was better than you, he lasts longer than you, whatever, you would still want to know?
Seth: Yep. Still want to know. Yeah the specifics. Because this whole thing, when people say "well if I haven't cheated with someone, well they would have just cheated with someone else." That's fine. But they still chose to cheat with you. So it's trying to unlock that connection.
Sean: Why that person? Why they chose to cheat with you.
Seth: Exactly. And what that says about you and what that says about them.
Sean: So for you, being cheated on. Was it more important for you to understand the physical aspects of it or the mental aspects?
Seth: Definitely the mental aspects. Like you talked about before, I knew that one of the big motivations for females having an affair is emotions. That's what all the research has said. And similar to you, I've talked to friends and counseled friends on the damage. And so it was the emotional problem that needed to be dissected more so than the physical.
Sean: So for you, the mental reasons were really really important and you wanted to understand, and know the mental history behind it. Whether or not she had this connection with him? How strong it was. Whether or not she actually wanted to be with him? Stuff like that.
Seth: Mmhmm. Yeah for sure. And this is the other aspect to the physical element as well. And on my end, she could not admit to it. She had such a disconnect from the person she thought she was and the person she actually was. And she could only stand in the one place and say "holy shit this is what I did, I made this choice, these are the reasons why". She would look at that and she would be horrified. She would look all the way across that chasm and go "well that's not me. I didn't do that." And she could not reconcile herself with what she did. And myself as an outsider to it all was able to see more clearly was going on. More so than she did.
Sean: Would you actually want her to explain everything to you mentally? What she was going through with herself, with the guy as well. In the sense that she felt more or less connected to the guy.
Seth: Yeah I wish that she would have had the presence of mind to do that. But again given that she had the presence of mind to do that, I don't see why she wouldn't have before this happened. But there are some things that you can't undo. And infidelity while you're in a faithful relationship is something that cannot be undone. You can liken it to a tragedy; a death.
Sean: I've talked to some women who have been in the place your ex has been and they're afraid to come clean, they're afraid of hurting that other person. What would you say to them? Tell them the whole truth or hold back?
Seth: I don't know if telling them is the best choice.
Sean: What if they want to know?
Seth: If they want to know then telling them is the best choice because it changes the relationship. Even not knowing and it happening, changes the relationship. And that's one of the things I picked up on and if the guy is observant then it changes the relationship. So whether you tell or don't tell, is the first decision.
Sean: If you do?
Seth: If you do, you need to be so open as to be volunteering information. If you fight the process, in any way, if your don't feel comfortable to share any information in any way. Then you set out to completely undo what you set out to do in the first place, which is come clean. And also, you want to minimize the hurt. For anyone who wants to tell because they want to "minimize the the hurt" I think they're misleading themselves because they want to tell to unload the guilt. Because the hurt has already happened. The hurt happened once they betrayed the relationship. And now you're just deciding whether you're going to own that or not.
Sean: So speaking for yourself, it's either you don't come clean, don't say anything, or if you're going to come clean you tell them everything, even if it may hurt?
Seth: Yes. Yeah. And you volunteer. It's information that you give. You give freely. And you give abundantly.
Sean: Once again, even if you know that the information will hurt them?
Seth: Yeah definitely, because the information will definitely hurt them and should hurt them. Unless they don't care, and if they don't care you might have found a solution to your own problem. [Laughs]
Sean: So what if your wife came to you and told you that she was in-love with this other person?
Seth: Well then it makes you choice a lot easier doesn't it?
Sean: Would you want to know that?
Seth: Hell yeah! Why the fuck would I want to be in a relationship and they don't want to do that? Or they're only living half in the relationship?
Sean: But what if your ex had said to you "I love you, it's just that I'm in-love with this other person"?
Seth: Yeah.
Sean: So same response, same thought process?
Seth: Yeah, because it means the person has actually thought about it. There's a difference between being in-love and loving someone. To know something that is vital to the health of the relationship is vital for both parties to have.
Sean: Well that's all the questions I have for right now. But I think cheating is a very interesting subject because of how men and women have very different mindsets. Like we talked about earlier, men cheat because of physical attraction and women cheat because of mental attraction. And generally speaking, if men want to know, they'll say it. But what they may not say is that they want to know everything. But typically men that want to know, want to know everything. Would you agree?
Seth: I totally agree with that statement. 100%. If I ask a question, it is not because I want the person that I am asking the question of to process how much they're going to tell. I don't want them to say "well I'm not going to tell them that because it's gonna hurt them. And I'm gonna change this fact because that would also be quite damaging and hurtful." The damage has already been done. The only way to heal it, is to make it clean. To come clean with what the fuck is going on. The person, they don't want to chase information. All the situations that's happened, I don't want to be chasing information. I shouldn't be chasing information. And what I should be getting is, to the best of your knowledge, cleanest, honesty, integrity. As much as what you're talking about is something that totally didn't express any of those elements at the moment it happened. [Laughs] But there is no halfway point. There is no point in sharing a little bit. Because it drags things out. Because maybe it's a guy thing, but I'm trying to piece everything together. And if you leave something out, the other person is going to pick up on it. And it is going to cause more pain. And then there's the added element of "well you're not going to tell the whole truth, you're just going to tell what you want."
Sean: So keeping that in mind would you want to know all the time they spent together? The things she's said to him?
Seth: Yeah definitely.
Sean: Even if it hurts?
Seth: Yes. It's the same question, the hurt's already happened. You're already involved in that. Yeah the damage has already happened, it's further damage by not sharing that stuff.
Sean: So you think that it's more detrimental to the relationship by not sharing the whole story?
Seth: Definitely. But as a guy, my first reaction is tell me everything. Tell me what you were wearing that day. Tell me why you slept with him. Tell me everything! I don't see how that can be confused as "well I'll only tell you about a few parts". It hurts. It's going to hurt. It already hurts. The damage has been done. I don't think it minimizes anything by only sharing part of it. I mean there are people who try to get away with it for as long as possible, that's what my ex did. She only confessed when I confronted her. I forced her to. But that's a reference to her character. I don't know if she was ever going to consciously tell me until I told her that I knew.
Sean: Alright that's all the questions I have now.
I conducted this interview because I wanted to give everyone (including myself) a first hand account of and a better understanding of what men feel like when they've been cheated on. And what they need in the aftermath. While Seth is only one person obviously, I would say that after counseling countless friends all these years, much of what he has said is a very good representation of the majority of men. I'll leave it to the reader to get out of this what they want but I would like to emphasize one thing that he said. Be completely honest, if the guy wants to know the truth, tell him everything, and don't worry about hurting him. Because the fact of the matter is; the worst hurt has already been done.
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